S03E125: NASA's Viper Moon Rover, James Webb's Black Hole Revelations, and Rediscovering Phosphine

0:00 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Andrew Dunkley, and welcome to another edition

0:03 Speaker 1: of Astronomy Daily. I'm sitting in for my brother Steve.

0:07 Speaker 1: He and Hallie have gone ring shopping. Not the kind

0:12 Speaker 1: of ring you're thinking about. I'm sure it's cut something

0:14 Speaker 1: to do with Saturn and a story coming up soon. No,

0:17 Speaker 1: Steve's off because of work commitments and asked me to

0:21 Speaker 1: step in for a little while, so I'll be looking

0:24 Speaker 1: after this episode coming up, We're going to look at

0:27 Speaker 1: the Viper. That's to do with the Viper Moon rover.

0:33 Speaker 1: NASA is looking for help, the James Web Space Telescope

0:37 Speaker 1: is looking at black holes. NASA is sending balloons up,

0:41 Speaker 1: and Juice is about to fly past Earth headed for

0:45 Speaker 1: the outer reaches, but it has to go in before

0:48 Speaker 1: it goes out. And we'll be talking to Professor Fred

0:52 Speaker 1: Watson about the rediscovery of phosphine in the atmosphere of Venus.

1:00 Speaker 2: The podcast with your host Andrew Dunkley.

1:05 Speaker 1: So let's begin with NASA, and as a part of

1:08 Speaker 1: its ongoing commitment to a sustainable and comprehensive lunar exploration program,

1:14 Speaker 1: NASA has issued a request for information to engauge interest

1:17 Speaker 1: from US companies and institutions in conducting emission using the

1:22 Speaker 1: VIPER Moon Rover. VIPER, which stands for Volatiles Investigating Polar

1:28 Speaker 1: Exploration rover, was originally designed to map potential off planet

1:33 Speaker 1: resources such as ice at the Moon's south pole. Now,

1:37 Speaker 1: on the seventeenth of July, NASA announced plans to discontinue

1:41 Speaker 1: VIPER and explore alternative methods for confirming the presence of

1:45 Speaker 1: frozen water around the Luna south Pole. However, the agency

1:49 Speaker 1: is open to contributing the VIPER rover in its current

1:53 Speaker 1: form to a qualified partner, so from July seventeen to

1:58 Speaker 1: August one, NASA accepted express of interest from the broader

2:01 Speaker 1: community for utilizing the VIPER rover. The current RFI aims

2:06 Speaker 1: to gather detailed proposals from interested parties on how they

2:10 Speaker 1: would deploy VIPER with minimum or no cost to the government.

2:15 Speaker 1: Now this opportunity is available to US organizations and industry,

2:19 Speaker 1: while NASA plans to assess international interest through separate channels.

2:25 Speaker 1: NASA appreciates the responses received and looks forward to learning

2:28 Speaker 1: more about how potential partners plan to leverage VIPER to

2:33 Speaker 1: achieve scientific and exploration goals. According to Nikola Fox, the

2:38 Speaker 1: Associate Administrator for the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters

2:42 Speaker 1: in Washington, She says, we aim to maximize the use

2:46 Speaker 1: of the engineering, technology and expertise developed for VIPA to

2:50 Speaker 1: advance our understanding of the Moon. Partnering on the mission

2:53 Speaker 1: would allow us to do so without affecting our future

2:56 Speaker 1: schedule of commercial lunar deliveries, Ensuring continued progress in lunar

3:01 Speaker 1: science and exploration for all future deliveries to the lunar

3:06 Speaker 1: surface through NASA's Commercial Lunar Payload Service Program, as well

3:10 Speaker 1: as instruments on CREUD missions will continue the agency's efforts

3:13 Speaker 1: to assess volatiles across the South Pole region. The request

3:17 Speaker 1: for information is available online and will remain open until Monday,

3:22 Speaker 1: the second of September. Still on, NASA and their Scientific

3:27 Speaker 1: Balloon Program has begun its annual four campaign at the

3:32 Speaker 1: agency's launch facility in Fort Sumner, New Mexico. From mid

3:36 Speaker 1: August through to mid October, eight balloons are scheduled to

3:40 Speaker 1: be launched carrying scientific experiments and technology demonstrations. These flights

3:45 Speaker 1: will support sixteen missions across various fields, including astrophysics, heliophysics

3:50 Speaker 1: and atmospheric research. A notable return to the fall lineup

3:55 Speaker 1: is the EXCITE program. The Exoplanet Climate Infrared Telescope mission

4:00 Speaker 1: led by a principal investigator, Peter Naegler from NASA's Goddard

4:04 Speaker 1: Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. EXCITE is an astronomical

4:09 Speaker 1: telescope designed to study the atmospheric properties of Jupiter like

4:13 Speaker 1: exoplanets from near space, and it was delayed due to

4:17 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty three campaign due to weather conditions. Additionally,

4:22 Speaker 1: eight piggyback missions will accompany the flights to further science

4:25 Speaker 1: and technology development. If you want more information on NASA's

4:29 Speaker 1: scientific balloon program, visit nasa dot gov slash Scientific Balloons.

4:35 Speaker 1: Supermassive black holes are located at the centers of large galaxies,

4:39 Speaker 1: including our own, and when these black holes are actively

4:42 Speaker 1: consuming matter, they emit a significant amount of light and

4:46 Speaker 1: are referred to as active galactic nuclei AGNs. However, observing

4:51 Speaker 1: the details of AGNs is challenging due to the large

4:55 Speaker 1: clouds of gas that obstruct our view. Bring in the

4:58 Speaker 1: James Webb Space Telescope, which was specifically designed to handle

5:02 Speaker 1: these kinds of challenges. Recent research published in the Monthly

5:06 Speaker 1: Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society showcases James Webb Space

5:10 Speaker 1: telescope observations of a supermassive black hole in a galaxy

5:14 Speaker 1: approximately seventy million light years away. The telescope detected polar

5:19 Speaker 1: dust surrounding the SMBH situated beyond the expected taurus of

5:24 Speaker 1: dust that directly accretes from the black hole, known as

5:27 Speaker 1: the accretion disc. Interestingly, this polar dust is heated not

5:32 Speaker 1: by radiation from the accretion disc, but by energetic shockwaves

5:36 Speaker 1: generated by relativistic jets. The study, titled Dust Beyond the

5:41 Speaker 1: Taurus Revealing the Mid Infrared Heart of Local Safe at

5:45 Speaker 1: ESO four to eight dash G one four with James

5:49 Speaker 1: Webb Space Telescope and MIR was led by Huda Haydar,

5:54 Speaker 1: a PhD student at Newcastle University in the UK. Haydar

5:58 Speaker 1: and her co research, which is a part of Gaetos

6:01 Speaker 1: Galactic Active Taurus and Outflow Survey, an international team using

6:06 Speaker 1: the James Webb Space Telescope to investigate the mysteries of

6:09 Speaker 1: active galactic nuclei. While this is James Web Space Telescope's

6:14 Speaker 1: first observation of galaxy EESO four two eight G one four.

6:18 Speaker 1: Astronomers have been studying this safer galaxy, known for its

6:22 Speaker 1: high luminosity, for decades using various telescopes, including the Alma

6:26 Speaker 1: and Hubble telescopes, with their data contributing to this particular

6:30 Speaker 1: line of research. One of the main challenges in observing AGNs,

6:34 Speaker 1: including this one, is the presence of thick, extensive clouds

6:38 Speaker 1: of dust and gas that eventually feed the black hole,

6:41 Speaker 1: obscuring our view. The James web Space telescope mission is

6:45 Speaker 1: to penetrate such dust and provide a clearer view of

6:48 Speaker 1: these hidden regions. Telescope revealed extended mid infrared emissions stretching

6:54 Speaker 1: up to six hundred and fifty light years from the AGN.

6:58 Speaker 1: The polar dust's structure a lignes with a radio jet

7:01 Speaker 1: emitted by the AGN, but its perpendicular to a molecular

7:05 Speaker 1: gas lane feeding and obscuring the AGN, providing crucial evidence

7:09 Speaker 1: for the existence of polar dust. The morphology of this

7:13 Speaker 1: dust closely resembles gas ionized by the AGN. However, the

7:18 Speaker 1: new James web Space telescope images show that much of

7:21 Speaker 1: the polar dust emission is extending along the jet's paths,

7:25 Speaker 1: indicating that the jets, rather than the radiation from the AGN,

7:29 Speaker 1: are primarily responsible for heating and shaping the dust. The

7:33 Speaker 1: temperature differences between the accretion dust and the polar dust

7:36 Speaker 1: offer clues about the distinct heating mechanisms within the AGN,

7:41 Speaker 1: with jet induced shocks likely causing the heat disparities. About

7:47 Speaker 1: four years ago, a team of scientists announced the discovery

7:51 Speaker 1: of phosphene in the atmosphere of Venus. The popular press

7:55 Speaker 1: latched onto the story quickly, because phosphene is considered a biomarker.

8:00 Speaker 1: News ran rife that there could be life on Venus. However,

8:04 Speaker 1: others in the scientific community were skeptical and eventually the

8:08 Speaker 1: claims were debunked and the story faded away. Until now,

8:12 Speaker 1: four years later and the same team has used a

8:15 Speaker 1: new tool to examine the atmosphere of Venus and have

8:18 Speaker 1: yet again announced that they have found phosphene. So what

8:23 Speaker 1: does that mean this time around? I discussed the latest

8:26 Speaker 1: development with Professor Fred Watson from the Space Nuts podcast.

8:30 Speaker 2: So, once again this team has pointed the telescope at

8:35 Speaker 2: the planet Venus, but this time they have a new

8:39 Speaker 2: receiver on the telescope, and that apparently is the game

8:44 Speaker 2: changer in this work. It's certainly giving them a good

8:49 Speaker 2: deal more confidence in the results that are coming out

8:53 Speaker 2: of it, and much more of the data themselves. So

8:59 Speaker 2: basically and that the bottom line is that in each

9:05 Speaker 2: of the three observing campaigns they've done with the James

9:08 Speaker 2: Clark Maxwell telescope, they've got one hundred and forty times

9:12 Speaker 2: more data than they did with the original detection. So

9:16 Speaker 2: that's why they are much more confident in their results.

9:22 Speaker 2: This is a quote from Dave Clements, who's reader in

9:26 Speaker 2: astrophysics at Imperial College in London and one of the

9:29 Speaker 2: one of the team members. What we've got so far

9:34 Speaker 2: indicates that we once again have phosphine detections and so that's,

9:41 Speaker 2: you know, it's a bold thing to do to go

9:43 Speaker 2: back to your original target, knowing perhaps that you've got

9:47 Speaker 2: a better instrument and have another look. And it looks

9:51 Speaker 2: as though they are much more confident. And there's also

9:56 Speaker 2: you know, it's but wait, there's more story, because there

10:00 Speaker 2: is more to this. There is another observing team which

10:05 Speaker 2: is working on a different part of the microwave spectrum

10:10 Speaker 2: and they think they've detected the gas ammonia, and that

10:17 Speaker 2: apparently is basically, you know, a bigger and even bigger puzzle.

10:26 Speaker 2: So quoting Dave Clements again, he said that is arguably

10:31 Speaker 2: more significant than the discovery of phosphine. We're a long

10:35 Speaker 2: way from saying this, but he's saying it anyway. We're

10:39 Speaker 2: a long way from saying this. But if there is

10:42 Speaker 2: life on Venus producing phosphine, we have no idea why

10:45 Speaker 2: it's producing it. However, if there is life on Venus

10:49 Speaker 2: producing ammonia, we do have an idea why it might

10:53 Speaker 2: want to breathe ammonia. And that is the interesting part

11:00 Speaker 2: of this. And just to elaborate again another comment from

11:03 Speaker 2: Dave Clements, phosphine has been discovered in the atmosphere of Saturn,

11:08 Speaker 2: but that's not unexpected because Saturn is a gas giant

11:12 Speaker 2: and there's an awful lot of hydrogen in its atmosphere,

11:14 Speaker 2: so any hydrogen based compounds like phosphine or ammonia are

11:18 Speaker 2: what dominate there. But the same is not true of

11:23 Speaker 2: rocky planets like our own and Venus and Mars. And

11:28 Speaker 2: that's why you know, the possible detection of these hydrogen

11:32 Speaker 2: based compounds phosphine and ammonia are so unexpected on Venus.

11:38 Speaker 1: Well, it does open up a can of worms, and

11:41 Speaker 1: it could be worms, I'm not sure, But what are

11:45 Speaker 1: the odds of it being life? And now they say

11:48 Speaker 1: they're a long way from saying it is bad it

11:52 Speaker 1: could be or what, well, I suppose the alternative question,

11:55 Speaker 1: what else could be causing the existence of phosphine and ammonia.

12:00 Speaker 2: That's the right way to look at it. The well,

12:07 Speaker 2: he's very you know, Dave Clements is certainly talking the

12:12 Speaker 2: talk and giving us some very good quotes here. Phosphine

12:16 Speaker 2: and pneumonia have both been suggested as biomarkers, including on exoplanets,

12:23 Speaker 2: so finding them in the atmosphere of Venus is interesting

12:26 Speaker 2: on that basis as well. When we published the phosphene

12:29 Speaker 2: findings in twenty twenty, quite understandably that was a surprise.

12:33 Speaker 2: And so he makes the point that other instruments have

12:41 Speaker 2: not actually made that detection, and they include the Venus

12:47 Speaker 2: Express spacecraft, which is an ISO spacecraft in orbit around Venus.

12:52 Speaker 2: They include and something called the IRTF, which is a

12:57 Speaker 2: NASA facility again on Hawaii, not actually very far from

13:00 Speaker 2: the James Clark Maxwell Telescope NASA in pra red telescope

13:04 Speaker 2: facility and observations made with actually an observatory that another

13:11 Speaker 2: of my friends has worked on, Sophia, which was the

13:14 Speaker 2: airborne NASA observatory on that seven four seven sp in

13:19 Speaker 2: the back of it that's now no longer flying, but

13:23 Speaker 2: that when it was had also obviously observed venus and

13:28 Speaker 2: they didn't find these phosphine found finding. So there's a

13:31 Speaker 2: number of different investigations that have not turned up the

13:39 Speaker 2: gas phosphine. And I am getting to the answer to

13:42 Speaker 2: your question in a minute, Andrew and working round to

13:45 Speaker 2: it and there. But they've they've ruled out one of

13:51 Speaker 2: the things that was suggested as being a contaminant when

13:56 Speaker 2: that first lot of phosphine observations were released, and that

13:59 Speaker 2: was selfen dioxide and that is basically ruled out now

14:06 Speaker 2: by the ATTICAM a large millimeterilimter ray ALMA. But the

14:12 Speaker 2: key thing here, and again I'm going to quote Dave Clements.

14:16 Speaker 2: It turns out that all our observations that detected phosphene

14:21 Speaker 2: were taken as the atmosphere of Venus moved from night

14:25 Speaker 2: into day, and all the observations that didn't find phosphene

14:28 Speaker 2: were taken as the atmosphere moved from day to night,

14:32 Speaker 2: and the suggestion is that the ultraviolet light from the

14:38 Speaker 2: Sun actually breaks up these molecules as it moves from

14:44 Speaker 2: day to night. So you know, if you take them

14:47 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, the molecules have all

14:49 Speaker 2: gone because the Sun's basically baked it out. As Dave

14:54 Speaker 2: Clements puts it, all phosphene is baked out and that's

14:56 Speaker 2: why you don't see it, Okay. Yeah, So that suggests

15:02 Speaker 2: that the phosphine observations might be real and they might

15:06 Speaker 2: be sort of being replenished, if I can put it

15:09 Speaker 2: that way. Because if you've got phosphine that at the

15:13 Speaker 2: end of the day isn't there, it's been baked out,

15:16 Speaker 2: but at the beginning of the day it is there,

15:20 Speaker 2: it suggests that something is forming phosphine and maybe that

15:24 Speaker 2: is an indicator of life.

15:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got to wonder what kind of life that

15:29 Speaker 1: could be, and it would be residing in the upper

15:33 Speaker 1: atmosphere because it's too wide for anything down on the planet.

15:36 Speaker 2: That's correct, And there's nasty things as well. There's all

15:39 Speaker 2: the sulphuric acid that lower levels in the you know,

15:42 Speaker 2: down in the in the in the droplets cloud that sorry,

15:46 Speaker 2: the clouds of venus further down. Yeah, so look it's

15:53 Speaker 2: the suggesting what they're suggesting. And this now is a

15:57 Speaker 2: quote from actually once again from Dave Clements, so that

16:01 Speaker 2: we're going to get another voice but ammonia. Actually, let

16:08 Speaker 2: me let me quote Jed Graves or Grieves is professor

16:11 Speaker 2: of astronomy at Cardiff University, and actually I think she's

16:14 Speaker 2: the leader of the team. She says, the exciting thing

16:18 Speaker 2: behind this will be if it's some kind of microbial

16:21 Speaker 2: life making the ammonia, because that would be a neat

16:25 Speaker 2: way for it to regulate its own environment. It's really

16:29 Speaker 2: interesting that they, you know, that they are so confident

16:32 Speaker 2: with these observations. They're actually trying to look at what

16:34 Speaker 2: mechanisms living organisms might might be using to create the

16:40 Speaker 2: phosphene on the ammonia. So I think they'd put it

16:43 Speaker 2: at fifty to fifty. I'm just reading between the lines here.

16:47 Speaker 2: My self. I'd put it lower. I think that maybe

16:50 Speaker 2: you know it's we've barked up this tree so many

16:53 Speaker 2: times Andrew looking for rock solid biomarkers and they're very,

17:00 Speaker 2: very difficult to find, even if you find something that

17:03 Speaker 2: you think is only caused by living organisms, there's probably

17:07 Speaker 2: always going to be another chemical way, purely chemical way

17:11 Speaker 2: that you might form it and that might not have

17:13 Speaker 2: been found yet.

17:15 Speaker 1: And one more thing before we wrap it up. ESA's

17:18 Speaker 1: Jupiter Icy Moon Explorer, otherwise known as Juice, is set

17:21 Speaker 1: to make a critical return to Earth around August nineteen

17:25 Speaker 1: and twenty. Flight controllers will guide the spacecraft in a

17:29 Speaker 1: groundbreaking maneuver, flying past the Moon and then the Earth.

17:34 Speaker 1: The double gravity assist a world first lunar earth flyby

17:38 Speaker 1: will act as a braking maneuver, adjusting juices speed and

17:42 Speaker 1: direction for its journey to Jupiter via Venus. Yep, it's

17:46 Speaker 1: got to go in before it can go out, but

17:49 Speaker 1: apparently that's a shortcut. The operation is intricate, as even

17:54 Speaker 1: a minor error could derail the whole thing. Launched in

17:58 Speaker 1: April last year, juices upcoming lunar earthflyby marks the first

18:02 Speaker 1: major step in its complex voyage through the Solar System.

18:06 Speaker 1: During the flyby, Earth will curve Juice's trajectory, slowing it

18:10 Speaker 1: down and setting it on course for a Venus flyby

18:13 Speaker 1: in August of next year. Slow, isn't it? For a

18:17 Speaker 1: fast trip. From there, the spacecraft will gain additional energy boosts,

18:22 Speaker 1: first from Venus and then from two subsequent flybys of Earth.

18:27 Speaker 1: It's complicated, but it works. We hope fingers crossed well.

18:32 Speaker 1: That brings us to the end of this episode of

18:34 Speaker 1: Astronomy Daily. Don't forget to visit us online at space

18:37 Speaker 1: Nuts podcast dot com or space nuts dot io, where

18:41 Speaker 1: you can sign up for the Astronomy Daily news letter

18:45 Speaker 1: and the next edition of Astronomy Daily coming up tomorrow.

18:49 Speaker 1: And Steve will be back with Halley later in the week.

18:52 Speaker 1: From me, Andrew Dunkley, thanks for your company. This has

18:55 Speaker 1: been Astronomy Daily class with your host Andrew Dunkley.